Chinese New Year is a time for family gossip. Two days ago, over sweet tangerines and chicken jerky in my family home in Petaling Jaya, Malaysia, my Auntie Chan (who is related to me in some convoluted way) said she prayed that the Year of the Rabbit would bring luck and fortune to her family… such as her son ending his relationship with “a China girl.”
China girl? I asked. What China girl?
“He’s been seeing this girl from who-knows-what province in China,” she scowled. “A ‘student’ here, so he thinks. She’s very pretty. Sexy. No wonder he’s so ga-ga over her.”
What’s wrong with this Chinese girl? I wondered.
“Oh. She’s been very sweet. But… she’s a China girl. And whatever their good intentions, these women from China eventually get up to no good here.”
Her comment bothered me, even though it definitely wasn’t the first time in my Southeast Asian life I’d heard such comments by local Chinese regarding mainland Chinese women. In the past, I’d usually be bored by those sentiments and brush them aside, but there were times, I’ll admit, that I agreed with them, nodding my head and giving my own examples of “China girls” I’d read about who’d “gotten up to no good.”
But living in China and the meaningful friendships I’ve developed with some mainland Chinese women have affected my ability to appreciate flippant remarks about “China girls.” Out of respect for my auntie, I swallowed my discomfort and let her rant against her son and his no-good China girlfriend who she was sure was nothing but a gold-digging opportunist who would dump him after she’d gotten all she wanted.
Yesterday night, my mother and I were sitting on the couch reading newspapers when she laughed and thrust her paper into my face. “Remember what Auntie Chan was saying about those China girls?” she asked. “Here’s another example.”
My mother had been reading the “Dear Thelma” section in The Star’s Sunday Starmag pullout, and yesterday’s sad soul needing advice was a Malaysian man in his early fifties who was in a bad relationship with a mainland Chinese woman. You can read his letter here.
A summary of this man’s problems: He is in love with a Chinese national he met eight years ago. She was in Malaysia on a student visa but worked as a prostitute; her only reason for being here was to make as much money as she could. He paid RM20,000 to her pimps to bail her out, and gave her another RM10,000 because he was smitten with her. She ran off and married someone else in Taiwan, but he still sent her money. She later wanted to divorce her husband, with whom she had a kid, and contacted this sad Malaysian guy again, rekindling their romance. Against his better judgement, he agreed to bring her back to Malaysia for a visit, and for the first time saw her as selfish and cunning, but is still in love with her. He suspects she uses sex for power, but loves her and believes she loves him. Now he doesn’t know what to do.
My mother’s summary of this man’s problems: Dirty old uncle blinded by a pretty, willing China girl who uses him when it suits her. A woman who, no surprise, was in Malaysia on a fake student visa for the purpose of “getting up to no good” in the first place.
The discomfort I’d felt earlier on with my auntie swelled up again. “Not all China girls are bad, Ma,” I said, thinking about my friends back in Shanghai. “Anyway, it’s this old uncle’s own fault that he’s so in love with her he can’t turn her away. He’s the one asking for trouble.”
“Not all China girls are bad,” my mother agreed, surprising me. “But the ones flooding into Malaysia have a bad reputation. Week after week you read about police raids on bars where they find China girls working here illegally. Many of them are mistresses. Why do you think Malaysia won’t allow China girls to come in as maids? Their whole purpose in coming here is to start affairs, catch a rich man as soon as possible. These old apeks; their wives are old, and now they have beautiful young China girls throwing themselves at them. What apek is going to say no? And then they cry when the girls run away with their money. The whole situation is stupid.”
I thought back to Auntie Chan and her concern over her son, who was a young man starting his first job, not a rich old Malaysian Chinese apek. “What about him?” I asked. “Why would auntie be concerned that his girlfriend is an opportunist when he doesn’t have much to his name?”
My mother mulled over it. “Remember your Singapore uncle who married that woman from Tianjin?” she asked. “They met in China, and she married him within a month. A month! Do you think she would have married some Chinese guy from her own city that quickly? She saw it as an opportunity to get out of China.”
“But what’s wrong with that? They are still married, they have a kid. It’s not like she’s run off with someone else. And I like Auntie Li An. I don’t think she’s planning to take money and run off with anybody.”
“I know,” said my mother. “I’m just trying to explain what Auntie Chan finds distasteful. That her son’s girlfriend is possibly using him for his passport. Who knows the truth? She could be a genuinely nice girl lah. But sadly, the actions of many girls have caused this bad reputation, and everyone is suspicious of any relationship with a China girl. Up to no good until proven otherwise.”
That remark hit me, and I remembered a personal incident that happened about five years ago. There was another exchange student at my university, a guy with an intelligent smile, glasses, and huge biceps. The nerdy hunk of my dreams. He was no player and was looking for a serious relationship; I felt too young to make promises, and stalled. And then someone else came into the equation.
A China girl.
The way my mind has probably exaggerated it, she swooped into his life and snatched him up when he was still technically single. I remember evilly thinking that it wouldn’t have stopped her if he had been attached. She was small and cute and giggly, with large breasts for an Asian girl. I was jealous of them. She also dreamed of going to America for grad school, and wanted to improve her English. He gladly helped her. Those factors combined to turn her into an “opportunistic snake” in my head. I was hurt that he’d fallen for her so quickly, and swore that in my future I would never be with anybody who’d been involved with a wily mainland Chinese woman.
Those feelings have dissipated, since my ex-crush and his Chinese girlfriend are still together. She is now in the States with him, still in love and also busy with doctoral research. I now respect her as someone who took a leap of faith I couldn’t, and the better part of me is happy they’re happy. But my mother was right; that relationship, to me, was automatically “no good until proven otherwise.”
***
Before anyone accuses me of being/having been a biased biatch, I want to emphasize that I — and many other Malaysian women who have made remarks about “China girls” — have deep friendships with women from mainland China, as well as relatives in the PRC. I know it might sound a bit like people proving they are not homophobic by insisting “I have many gay friends! I have a gay cousin!” but it’s true — I love and am indebted to many Chinese women in Shanghai and elsewhere who I see only as wonderful human beings. That’s why the “China girl” bashing bothers me nowadays… though what bothers me more is that part of me still feels that prejudice.
Maybe what we Malaysians/Southeast Asians should do is stop generalizing these women as “China girls” and rename them “Shanghai girls,” though that would probably cause problems and outrage Shanghainese women everywhere. I take the term “Shanghai girl” from a book by Shanghai-based writer Mina Hanbury-Tenison, who published a rather no-holds-barred book called Shanghai Girls: Uncensored & Unsentimental.
The book is pretty much a how-to guide for “marrying up,” a.k.a. using your wiles to jump from (rich) man to (richer) man until you end up with your ideal successful lover, who you will quickly marry and then produce children for. The material is supposedly based on Mina’s conversations with “Lan Lan,” a Chinese woman who has been married (and divorced) three times, each to a man richer than the last. Shanghai girls are not dumb bimbos though, living on jewels and fine wine. No, they also ask their lovers to pay their university tuition fees, so that they have an asset — education — that can never be taken away from them. Shanghai girls dazzle their men with their youthful charms, but also their brains, learning enough to be able to talk about serious issues and help their rich husbands with their businesses. (Example of a smart Shanghai girl: Wendi Deng Murdoch.)
The candid book explains that wannabe Shanghai girls must, amongst other things, not be sentimental; be able to use sex to get what they want (“remember, men are stupid”); remember that youth + beauty = money; and “jump ship” to find men with more to offer. Thus, the women the book describes sound like the “China girls” we Malaysian Chinese women rag on, the ones who give women from China a bad name.
To be clear, the book and the author use the term “Shanghai girl” to describe the sort of sophisticated, wealthy, cosmopolitan women these girls strive to become. They are not necessarily Shanghainese. They can come from anywhere in China, do their “Shanghai girl-ing” anywhere in the world.
My mother thinks the book embarrasses Chinese women everywhere. My boyfriend was offended. Two mainland Chinese women I’ve showed the book to hate it “because it gives Chinese women a bad name overseas”… and also love it “because it’s truthful — many women who leave China looking for a better life do this. They are often the smartest but poorest ones. Seeing what their lives would be otherwise, who can blame them?”
A mainland Chinese male friend just rolled his eyes at all this, and said “who cares” what goes on between Shanghai girls and these men, as long as both parties are aware of what they’re doing and no families are being pulled apart. “She gets education and money, he gets a pretty woman who helps him while she’s with him — win-win.”
So would you be okay dating a Shanghai girl? I asked.
“Hell no,” he growled. “I want someone who really loves me.”
I guess that’s what all of us are looking for. And why we are so damn boggled and offended when Shanghai girls — or any women, any men — look for something else.
***
Update 8/2/11: Reader Yang has commented below on how “China girl” is a term created by Malaysians and Singaporeans (of Chinese descent) to distinguish themselves from newcomers from China. “That’s why they don’t use ‘Chinese girl’ — language is the battlefield for power-relations,” he writes. Very true. I have always been fascinated by that internal conflict — the obvious pride we have in our Chinese ancestry, yet the derision, instead of empathy, of the new migrants who come here looking for a better life; it’s like they are a “lesser Chinese” than us.
“China girl” and “China woman” are derogatory terms I’ve heard in Malaysia to draw a line between “them” and “us.” Out of curiosity, I Googled “mainland China woman” and the first result is this complaint to the Penang local government, reproduced below:
Please get those Mainland China Women especially those who work as GRO and Mistress to Married Men out of Penang!!! Most them here at least 5 to 6 years under social permit and a lot of them arrange fake married with local men so that they can stay here longer. They are problem to our society which many broken marriages are because of those women. They use thier body to steal men heart and get support from men. Caught them all and send them back to their country. Our country don’t need these women. Noted from these women, Malaysia is the easliest country to get in as compared to others such as Singapore. So our Authority should think twice before letting these women to enter our country.
As for Singapore, since it’s mentioned in the complaint above… when I lived there, I remember hearing the term “PRC” used to describe newcomers from China; the term always had negative connotations. My housemate back then was from Fuzhou, and she told me how insulted and embarrassed she felt every time someone said “oh, you are a PRC” when she revealed she was China-Chinese.
In another incident that still makes me angry today, I went with another housemate, originally from Tianjin, to a store in Clementi to complain about the terrible customer service she’d gotten the day before. Instead of an apology of any sort, the salesperson said, to her face, “I hate having to deal with PRC girls like you, you are a menace.” When my friend protested that she was well within her rights to complain, the salesperson said, in Mandarin, “leave this store before you make me so mad I hit you,” and made a move as if to punch her. Shocked, I helped my friend lodge a police report about having received threats of physical violence. I saw the police officer’s face when he saw her People’s Republic of China passport. It was a look of great reluctance. My friend struggled to recount what happened in English (as the officer didn’t speak much Mandarin); after listening for a few minutes, he told her, “Do you even know what you are complaining about? Your English is quite bad.” Furious, she burst into tears and started speaking in rapid Japanese. Funnily, when he realized that my friend had grown up in Tokyo and was culturally Japanese despite her PRC passport, he was overly polite and quickly processed the complaint.
***
Second update, 9/2/11: There was a photo accompanying this post, which the owner has asked me to take down out of respect for his wife and daughter. Original photo here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/yakobusan/434615901/ The photo was originally used by Superior Chinese Girlfriend with permission of a Creative Commons license, which the owner has decided to revoke only today. I respect the reason behind his sudden realization that posting family photos under a Creative Commons license is not a good idea. I have removed the photo at his request.
Gold-diggers have been around for a long time in many countries. We don’t always know people’s true intentions.
I’ve been in Nanjing for 4 years and some family members think I am crazy to be here-an older white woman. Your post made me smile and laugh
Outside of Shanghai, the girls are fine. In fact, Shanghai itself is filled with 外地 girls (such as yourself) that are terrific, funny, cute, and by all accounts would make terrific girlfriends/wives.
As a man with a touch of Asian fever (joking), I’ve been in China for about 4 years, I can tell you, the ‘bitchy Shanghainese girl’ is definitely a phenomenon, and it’s not attractive in the slightest. In fact my stomach is turning slightly, just thinking of some of the mindless twats I’ve met here.
Bottom line, I’ll say this, thank god they let 外地人 live here, or every straight man in the city (incl. myself) would leave.
PS. Your BF is exactly right. And it’s he’s not being overly sentimental/metro/gay for saying it.
You have to understand, Shanghainese girls only have sex to offer men, not much else. Sophistication? Please. Try pretense. Now imagine have sexing with one of these mindless soulless robots. Sex without the slightest trace of affection/romanticism/emotion.
I’m trying to tiptoe around the ‘hooker’ analogy, but, who am I kidding. I’ve seen interviews with Lan Lan, and when asked what SH girls have to offer their men, what makes them so attractive, her response is paper thin– beyond sex, nothing.
(Hint: Girls in Shandong or Sichuan or Jilin will give you all of the vivacious sexuality, but they actually have personality, so who needs a Shanghai girl?)
I didn’t even touch on the golddigger stuff, but I don’t have to. Without any redeeming qualities, these women needn’t separate any man from his chequebook.
Which means gals in Shandong or Sichuan or Jilin are too into guys of other races even a bad looking one in poverty. In my opinion, those gals are cheap. But you will definitely like those ones for an obvious reason . But SH gals dont show much interest to a poor guy and very likely to give you much attitude and hurt your feeling(too bad).That’s why you feel so sour about SH gals.
To be honest, is there a lot of white gals like a poor and bad-looking guy? I dont think so.
But one thing for sure, SH gals would better hide their attitude towards you and learn to behave like decent america ladies.
It’s the same in Singapore, or perhaps worse. The media compounds the situation with biased reporting using “PRC .. caught/did something…” labels. People neglect to blame straying men and find it convenient to criticize the immigrant nationality we grew out of. People forget to judge individuals for who they are, and not their nationality. This is unfortunate, for most of these judgmental people are well-educated in a so-called modern society.
I love my home country and I’m a proud citizen. I also have a mainland girlfriend, and we’re both in our twenty-somethings (so we’re not of the uncle+meimei mould). I’m worried and relunctant to bring her home to face all the hostility. It is a pity, I hope the situation can change.
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China girl—-I guess the word created by Malay or Singapore ppl? in order to distinguish themselves as migrants of the second or the third-generation with a Chinese origin
from new-migrants. That;s why they don’t use Chinese girl—-language is the battlefield for power-relations.
It makes sense that ppl tend to generalise their experiences, friends they meet and chat form their attitude and value in some way.
Imagine what sort of girls will go to Malay for a living, must be not rich la, no wonder they have bad reputition in Malay…
But in terms of Shanghai Girls for Sale
CENA!!!!
The title is so trash! The author looks like a Chinese graduate from Yale. There must be such kinda girl, but the problem is how many??? Plus, don’t simplised their motivation for climbing the social ladder, motivation and actions are multiple.
Last but not the least, these authors represent ‘China girls’ as such, suggest their self-presentation of superiority and hold the vantage point of morality. They are the colunmists, they understand the power of media-representation and formation of stereotype.
I contend that they should be cautious of their words in order to be responsible writers. Writing is not just for eye-attracting or causing contraversal debate, otherwise they are just clown with evanescent fame.
“CENA!!!!”
Sophistication
The names change, the situation is timeless: poorer [insert nationality/ethnicity here] girls using sex to survive or thrive in [insert richer society here]. Anhui girls in Shanghai la, or Russian girls in Urumqi even.
The hilarious thing about Mina’s book is how out-of-date it is: at least a decade. Nowadays, the Shanghainese girls are not “Shanghai Girls”: most have family wealth that makes their foreign husbands dependent upon them, not the other way around. Shanghainese girls still largely expect to be princessed, purses held and gifts bought, but they have long since ceased being the fiscal opportunists they are stereotyped as. Shanghainese women actually pursue men on a much more equal level than other Chinese women; but their equal is an Anhui girl’s meal-ticket.
That’s probably why you see fewer and fewer Shanghainese girls dating foreign guys: the Shanghainese girls have more money and don’t want to support the guys.
Granted, having their own money and not needing to gold dig probably does make the stereotypical Shanghainese girls even bitchier. (Good for them.)
Christine, thanks for writing so honestly and courageously about a really important topic. I think you’re right to resist the term “China Girl” to ascribe a set of values/behaviors to people based solely on where they come from. To me, that’s racist.
I don’t think switching to “Shanghai girls” is much help though, because it does the same thing, only on a smaller scale. I know you’re referring to Hanbury-Tenison’s book, but I think that book title is itself racist (I’m really dropping a bunch of r-bombs, huh?) and doesn’t warrant repeating.
Why not call girls who exploit men through romance “Lan Lans”? After all, she’s the one who exhibited and advocated the behavior.
I know plenty of amazing, genuine Shanghainese girls – Michael, where are you meeting them?! – and I’d hate for them to be dismissed as caring about nothing but wealth/status. It’s just not true.
@Junde, man, that sounds like a tough situation. But you guys know what your relationship is founded on, and don’t let anyone else’s bigoted BS get to you. Call them out on it.
“That’s probably why you see fewer and fewer Shanghainese girls dating foreign guys: the Shanghainese girls have more money and don’t want to support the guys.”
Haha, that’s a convenient attitude, and very optimistic of you. Here I thought they were single because the sound of Shanghainese turns most men’s penises inside out. Men don’t want money, they want to work to make their own money. Men want great sex and companionship. SH girls offer neither.
“I know plenty of amazing, genuine Shanghainese girls”
Sorry if I’m skeptical … I’ve been living here 3 years and it’s pretty black and white. My picture of a local girl is nightmarish. Most SH girls will come up blank if you ask them about romance.. for them it’s all business. The euphemism (for the soul-sucking ways of SHnese) of choice is “Shanghai girls are very practical” 15 million women in this city, I don’t have to settle for a girl who’s ‘practical’.
Many thanks to Christine for bringing up the issue. I also appreciate a lot Lisa’s hit-the-spot remark – The names change, the situation is timeless.
The whole discussions here based around women who use sex in exchange for material gains, if abstracted from the China context, are applicable to many other nationality/ethnicity groups. I.e. more than one time, I heard my western European friends making flippant comments without apology on how the eastern European women – hot, smartly dressed, difficult to catch – are all willingly to sell themselves to the highest bidders.
I guess it is safe to say, the real issue goes beyond the mainland Chinese women trying their lucks in foreign lands. Way more than that, it is the dynamics of gender relations, coupled with mechanisms working between two parties of unsymmetrical social resources.
Back to the article per se, the China girl, a term coined by the Chinese communities in Southeastern Asian countries, reflects upon not only the gender tensions, but it also serves a good indication that how socially straitificated groups within a community – in this context, let’s say a grand, loosely organized communit(ies) connected by the Chinese culture, languages, clans and economic ties – perceive themselves and those going down the diverged paths.
As Christine said, there are intricate conflicts here. From her perspective, the longevity of the Chinese history, the sophistication of the Chinese culture, as well as the achievements that the Chinese had made along the millennia, are certainly something worth a kudo, which, as a mainland Chinese and Shanghainese, I cannot agree enough. This kind of connection to the past is not so easily won, the cultural heritage must be cherished.
The problem, however, is how to face up to the real-today China, plagued by all economic, social and political problems. For those who enjoy a detachment of both physical distance and emotion, they can look from afar and can comfortably toss some China(Chinese women)-bashing comments to season their daily small talks.
As someone living and speaking from within, however, I felt bothered. Christine is right that Chinese/Shanghainese woman everywhere would be outraged by the judgements outlined in this article, none the less having a mixed feeling towards that Shanghai Girl book, which did captured a grain of truth in a small fraction, but leaving an overwhelming legacy, in a very bad way, to those geniuine, devoted and wonderful Chinese women to bear. It is not surprising at all that some overseas Chinese are prone to resort to language as a weapon to distinguish and to draw the boundary.
Through differentiating themselves from the mainland Chinese, they are also trying to disassociate themselve with that real-today China and all the problems and burdens this country is struggling to shake away from.
The above is what I got out of the article and comments. What I am still struggling to make sense out of is the stark hostility towards Shanghainese women that radiates through some of the commentors. If the personal encounters count in generalizing the characters of a social group. A feasible way to weigh in the pro- and con- opinions of the Shanghainese women, probably should go with sample-counting.
I feel genuinely curious that how many real figures standing behind these no-holds-barred claims that – Shanghainese women have only sex to offer, they are not capable of meaningful, romantic relationships but treating it as a practical business, etc. etc..
But I am pretty sure that, Shanghai born and raised, I stand in a good position to give numerous examples of my wonderful Shanghainese women friends. They go through an extreme meritocratic educational system, working on well-paid respectable professions, financtially and mentally independent. In terms of relationships, they are genuine, considerate and devoted.
A tempting extreme for me to go is to claim the all Shanghainese women are like this. Yet satistically, it begs a concession that people are all different. The diversity presnets itself in however small a community.
Please be cautious and thoughtful before reaching out to any excessive claims, needless to say those involved with words of vulgarity. Comments as such, is not a good way to respond to a though-provoking worth-reading piece, even worse, it reveals the bigotry and shallowness of the person who let them out.
@Yuping, you assume that it’s insulting to Shanghainese women, but actually they take great pride in this stuff. That’s why they do it. I’m only reporting on the small sampling of “every Shanghai girl I’ve ever met.” What should I do, ignore every single experience I’ve had with a particular group? After a while, the message hits home. In fact the author, with this book, is trying to repair the image of SHnese women, by saying, “they’re sophisticated, charming, seductive, confident” .. bla bla bla.. I’m not buyin’ it.
If anything, SHnese women feel incredible pressure to ‘be sophisticated’ because they’re from this huge world-class city…but don’t know how, so they come off as being pretentious when they drone on for hours about what brand their new wallet is, etc. Doesn’t that sound charming? Oh, you’re bored out of your mind? Ok. Cool.
The Lan Lans and the Fa Dia (throwing girly tantrums) Girls are two subsets of Shanghainese women. Certainly they exist, only the Lan Lans are now either over 45 or non-Shanghainese; they emerged in the 1980s and 1990s when there was a massive socioeconomic disconnect between China and the West, and Shanghainese had no access to a lot of opportunities unless via a foreigner. The Lan Lans, they exist and I know many of them, took what they could and did what they must to get ahead; the same sort of women today are able to make it on their own or WITH a man, which is actually easier than making it THROUGH a man, if she’s that competent and savvy.
The Fa Dias are the 20-30 something princesses on the market today. They are spoiled by their parents, obsessed with their own preciousness, and wanting it all – but too lazy to work for it. Their parents pay for their education and expenses, and they have stable if boring jobs (thinking causes wrinkles) with decent wages, just not enough for an unlimited supply of luxury tat and flattery. Few save their parents and guys into “girly-girls” and thus dumb enough to date them will defend the Fa Dia Girls; regular Shanghainese girls particularly loath them, and the Lan Lans probably view them as undignified and imprecise.
As soon as you invoke the “all”, you enter a certain fallacy. (Unless in the very limited sense, ie “All three of us would like coffee, please.”) If I said: “ALL foreign guys in Shanghai are shlubby, sad-sack, unattractive losers who could never get jobs or women back home but in China, due to economic inequity and post-colonial legacies they are assumed to be rich and successful, so they can indulge their fetishes and submissive Geisha fantasies, while developing delusions of sexuo-racial superiority.” I would be dead wrong. Even replacing “all” with “most” would be unfair. But with “many”? I’ll stand by that.
Many Shanghainese girls are Fa Dias or Lan Lans – but certainly not all, and probably not most.
If the only Shanghainese girls that Michael meets, or that will date him, are Fa Dias: well, that says more about him than it does about Shanghainese girls.
(What’s funny is when stereotypes collide, and the Shlubbs date the Fa Dias: she assumes her tubby English teacher is rich and handsome, and he thinks his shrieking harpy is demure and submissive. Not pretty, but showtimes daily.)
Stereotypes exist for a reason, but accept them as universal and you risk ending up a Shlubb married to a Fa Dia.
Author, how can you steal my photo from my husband’s flickr??? Who give you the right to paste other people’s private photo here? In this case you are already a thief, how come you trash other nation?
Jiajia — I did not “steal” your photo. As it happens, your husband gave me and the world the right to use your photo under something called a Creative Commons license. In the future, I would suggest that before you call somebody a thief, you consult whoever posted the photos online, with permission, for public use, first.
definitions of skin colour, country born, cultural background and where you lived are all questionable but should not identify with what we are as human because we are something more and can evolve into something different in life.
there would be no stereo types if a country is n’t overly populated and any human would do things to survive. It is human nature to assume before we really know what the truth maybe.
“If the only Shanghainese girls that Michael meets, or that will date him, are Fa Dias: well, that says more about him than it does about Shanghainese girls.”
I didn’t say a subset of local girls are this way, and I certainly didn’t say that I want to date them, I said all local girls are this way. Nice try.
Hello. The way you are using this photo of my wife made me really rethink the whole creative commons issue and I decided to revoke the licence from all family photos, including this one. I don’t like the way my wife is being portrayed here and kindly ask you to take it down. We are married since years and have a year old daughter, so I find this highly inappropriate. Thank you for understanding.
Jakob — I have removed the photo at your request. I agree that it is not a good idea to post family photos under a Creative Commons license.
The ‘China girl’ issue caught me by total surprise when I was on a trip home to Penang from here in Melbourne, Australia.
As true ‘banana’ who hadn’t been home in 10 years, I was in total shock when my Aunty made a comment seemingly out of nowhere. We were at a beachside seafood stall, waves crashing in the early evening, stuffing ourselves with delicious roast crab. As I was about to munch on some delectable white claw meat, Aunty quickly whispered to me, “There are so many prostitutes around now.” I dropped my food in shock. What did prostitution have to do with dinner?
Aunty threw a meaningful glance behind me – it was then I noticed the flirtatious giggling. I thought the couple sitting behind us were just enjoying the beautiful view and delicious food like my Aunt and me. Having fun and enjoying each other’s company.
I surreptitiously questioned my Aunty about what she was referring to – heck, no matter who the girl was behind me, ‘prostitute’ or not I didn’t want to offend her! My Aunty then explained, or rather, ranted, very much like your Auntie Chan.
The girl behind me eventually got up to wash her hands, letting me see her clearly for the first time. Yes, she was pretty, yes, her skirt was a bit on the short side, but unless she and I had an actual conversation I was not going to judge. Hell, I have good friends who are strippers and I’ve worked in for a company that made adult websites for the internet. Nothing shocks me when it comes to a person’s choices in life.
Until that moment I thought ‘China Girl’ was just a silly David Bowie song. But it must be a real big deal if it gets all of our female elders so riled up!
My understanding of the issue though, is there are are no clear and easy judgements when it comes to the ‘China girl’. Not even for ‘China girls’ themselves.
A very interesting post and discussion.
The point that Shanghai women are now richer and so don’t need to be running schemes on men is kind of a canard. Yes, there are daughters of the legitimately rich. But given the hugely unequal distribution of wealth, they are a small subset of the Shanghai “meinu”. Yes, women now can make more money in professional occupations. But most “meinu” aren’t getting professional jobs – the ones you interact socially with may be, but that is just a sampling bias.
Also, given the housing and other costs in Shanghai, being a mid-level white collar worker isn’t exactly a track to getting rich. If you can hook up with a foreign middle manager posted in Shanghai, you can get attached to a low 6 figure USD income, which you will never get as a marketing rep or whatever job the shanghai meinu do. Its easy to trot out English teachers as the representative foreigner, but the monetary gains from snaring foreign corporate people are definately there.
There may be plenty of Shanghainese women who don’t think like this, but there are plenty who are for very clear structural reasons. As for whether there is something in the local Shanghai culture which encourages tiresome girly materialistic shallowness, that is another question . . .
As for the poor reputation of this certain type of mainland girl overseas, it is interesting to note one hears about it most in other Chinese speaking countries and communities. There is definately the same attitude among the Taiwanese, and the situation in cities like Kunshan full of taiwanese businessmen and their er-nai seems to prove the point.
Maybe because of the common language and similar culture means that barriers to entry are lower, so gold-diggers can have a much easier go of it in Malaysia than they would in Spain or Germany, where they would have to put in the effort learn another language to have the same opportunity to meet targets.
The general “get rich or die trying” attitude in the mainland, the lack of standards around having or being mistresses, and the huge disparity of wealth and opportunity probably drive alot of the dyanamic. These factors also existed in post-Soviet Russia, where a similar bad reputation also exists.
You know nothing about Shanghai. Those who claim they are from Shanghai are not, but Wai Di (outside Shanghai). Shanghai is a big city, much better than Kula Lumpar or Singapore. I am not sure if you have been there or not. There are a lot of rich guys in Shanghai. You guys are nothing if Shanghai girl is looking for a rich guy. Plus, Shanghai girls are not poor, they do not have to marry a rich guy. They do not need your visa. It’s easy for them to go abroad. They do not need you to improve their English. There are millions of foreigners on the street to practice English with.
Do be mislead by all these Wai Di girls. They are the gold digger who wants either visa or money or both.
When you talk about Chinese girl, please make sure where they are from, Shanghai or Wai Di. Those who have strange accent when speaking English, red on cheeks are not Shanghainess. One way to identify it is to check their passport by issuing place. If they are not Shanghainess, there is no way that the issuing place is “Shanghai”.
Excuse me, Wendy Deng is definately not from Shanghai. He is from a small town in Guangdong or He Nan, forgot.
I really doublt your geography of China. Is Shanghai the only city you know in China.
Most of the girls who are not attractive in Chinese standard are always hand in hand with an old crapy guy in Shanghai are not from Shanghai.
Unbelievable someone wrote such a bullshit about Shanghai girl.
I wish you good luck with Chinese girl.
“Those who claim they are from Shanghai are not, but Wai Di (outside Shanghai).”
Ha.. what world do you live in where people pretend to be SHnese？ Even if someone did lie about this (can’t imagine why?) I can spot a SHnese girl within 2 minutes of meeting her. Often when I do a little digging, it turns out the girl has been living in SH for a good 10-15 years, so they’ve learned to have a bad attitude, at which point I head for the hills.
“Shanghai is a big city, much better than Kula Lumpar or Singapore.”
This might be a Chinglish problem. Are you saying SH is bigger than Singapore? If it is, who cares. If you meant to say, t’s much better, I gotta say, do you have any idea how important SG is, as a trading hub in Asia? Are you aware that, while Chinese blow their nose and defecate(白度一下定义) on the street, SG is 1st class and extremely civilized? You know, like Hong kong? They have actual laws there, did you know that? Wake up.
Shanghai may have some big buildings (as ordained by Beijing Govt), but this is still a developing country. 人品和素质还需要多久发展吧。
As a Singapore citizen, I agree with your mother “Up to no good until proven otherwise” mantra. Please take note that Singaporeans do not have labels for Taiwanese, HK or other entrenched overseas Chinese women. Labels are reserved exclusively for those originating fresh off the plane from China.
Why?
Their ethics differ or to put it more succintly, its their lack of ethics. So how can entrenched overseas Chinese communities be so different from China women or men? The total eradication of Confucian values during the Cultural Revolution did so much damage that the China nationals have no criteria on which to judge what is right or wrong. As for the overseas Chinese communities, they are from the pre-Communist era of China from which they emigrated. So the main thrust of Confucian values remain more or less intact thru generations.
BTW, labels for Chinese nationals in Singapore also include Ah Tiong, the Tiong is from the Hokkien phrase “Tiong Kok”, or Middle Country when translated into English. Ah Tiong is uttered when you encountered/read/heard uncouth China nationals doing unethical or immoral acts. Mind you, the majority of China nationals in Singapore think, act, behave like Singapore is the nth province of China. Yes, we are their colony. So, do NOT blame my fellow Singapore citizens for giving them this label. They, the China nationals brought it on themselves. Since they, the China nationals refused to learn correct UNIVERSAL ethics, then they will be treated as such, outcasts.
To the Singaporean who contributed the above comment, why are you so boldly outspoken and yet anonymous?
What universal ethics have you, that inspires you to make such sweeping statements of another country’s citizens?
I am also a Singaporean, and I am ashamed of your brand of ethics. I sincerely hope your opinions do not represent as you say, the majority of Singaporeans.
“Ha.. what world do you live in where people pretend to be SHnese？ Even if someone did lie about this (can’t imagine why?) I can spot a SHnese girl within 2 minutes of meeting her. Often when I do a little digging, it turns out the girl has been living in SH for a good 10-15 years, so they’ve learned to have a bad attitude, at which point I head for the hills”
What world are you living. There are a lot of people who pretend to be Shanghainess. You should ask them why. Shanghainess is defined as who are born and grow up here. Those who live in Shanghai for a good 10-15 years don’t mean they are educated by the culture of this city. So, a Chinese a girl who has been in Singapore for 10-15 years are Singaporean? So any of the bad manner learned in Singapore? Is it what you are saying?
“This might be a Chinglish problem. Are you saying SH is bigger than Singapore? If it is, who cares. If you meant to say, t’s much better, I gotta say, do you have any idea how important SG is, as a trading hub in Asia? Are you aware that, while Chinese blow their nose and defecate(白度一下定义) on the street, SG is 1st class and extremely civilized? You know, like Hong kong? They have actual laws there, did you know that? Wake up.”
We are talking about the city itself. It’s not a poor place that people need to be gold digger. I’m not talking about who are the 1st or 2nd class citizen. I might be blind and do not know that Singaporean is the 1st class citizen in the world. However, your racism doesn’t make me feel that Singapore is civilized.
I just remind you that whne you make comments about girls from one city, you should make sure the girls are from that city.
China is a developing coutnry. I am not going to deny it. But it doesn’t mean they are going to lick your toes.
“I just remind you that whne you make comments about girls from one city, you should make sure the girls are from that city.”
Yeah, I’m talking about SHnese girls. Of course. You, me and everyone can spot them a mile away.
Go back and read my criticisms. I want/expect no ass-kissing whatsoever. I merely pointed out that SH girls aren’t romantic, and thus, unattractive to men. They manage to take all the romanticism out of relationships, and it feels cold/robotic to date a SH girl.
Eh, Lunde, did you not answer your own question already? Why ask me?
As you have stated very clearly in your comment way above mine that YOU are afraid to bring your CHINA girlfriend for your home visit back to Singapore?
Why are you afraid then? Is that not very clear to YOU why?
You probably know but cannot articulate it that the China nationals in Singapore are a social problem. Enough said cos I have seen & met your type: the Singaporean male with your China female girlfriend, mistress, wife etc. Its like what the author here has stated in this part of South East Asia where there is a social stigma reserved for them.
No point arguing with your type. My points are covered. You go with your own thinking, I with mine.
Lastly, hope you have the GUTS to bring your China girlfriend to Singapore & prove perhaps to your family members, friends, former colleagues that she can fit in. Yes, best of luck to you that you tie the knot with her provided you can give her the dowry that her China parents demand, a big house & that you continue to earn a big fat salary that your China girlfriend & her parents demand.
Remember divorce in China takes less than 10 minutes to process. That accounts for a high divorce rate in China due to no red tape.
“Yeah, I’m talking about SHnese girls. Of course. You, me and everyone can spot them a mile away.”
It’s still back to my point how come you deny girls from the whole city. How many of them, you have met or heard, are really from Shanghai. When you asked them where you were from. “I am from Shanghai.” Afterwards we began to bicthy about Shanghai. They tell foreigners that they are from Shanghai but to Chinese, they are very honest with where they are from. This also happened in Beijin. They are now living in Shanghai or Beijin but have never changed their ways of thinking/value which matches with these two cities. However, they all call themselves Shanghainess or Beijiness. That’s them who put shit on Shanghainess or Beijiness.
If you say Shanghai girls are not rommantic, trustful and etc. I can not agree with you. I saw millions of real Shanghainess who are rommantic, loyalty to the relationship. China is not as poor as 20 years ago. Cities like Shanghai and Beijin are very modern and developed. People from these cities are not necessary to marry a guy for money. I shall really ask the writer of “Shanghai girls”, if I have a chance, that how much she knows about Shanghai; how much she knows about Shanghai girl. She just interviewed a prostitute working in Shanghai and call it this is Shanghai girl. What kind of knowledge does she have? The minimal salary in Shanghai is more than US$ 200 per month. How come she can interview a girl earning less than US$ 100 a month and say this girl is from Shanghai.
Well, I agree there are still some material girls from Shanghai. But you have material girls anywhere, Singapore (excuse me, I saw them but I won’t call it Singapore girl up to no good unless proven otherwise), London, a lot of girls who just want to marry rich guys (would you dare say London girls are material?)
You guys just met some shity Chinese girls, which I agree there are a lot of girls like this in China. But you call them as Shanghai girls I won’t agree with. I am not racism but you really check their IDs you will find out where these girls are actually from.
“Cities like Shanghai and Beijin are very modern and developed.”
If I walk outside right now, there will be a guy blowing his nose on the street, and possibly urinating. Oh well! Let’s try again in 10 years. Tell this kind of thing to someone who has never been to China. Not me.
How can you say there’s lots of loyal married Shanghainese. Most don’t get married for love but family/social pressure (obviously). Shanghai in particular is known for its 剩下女士 for the exact reason I’m talking about, something unique to Shanghainese culture, so its basically the worst point you could have made.
So the only thing we disagree on, is you seem to have this theory that girls here are going to _pretend_ to be Shanghainese. Dude. Just get over it. This is just not happeneing. It’s real simple, to spot a Shanghainese. I’ll give you a hint: girls in China whose eyes light up and enjoy speaking Mandarin with you are NOT Shanghainese. Girls who insist to speak English with you are Shanghainese. Do you have any idea how pretentious that is? It’s the Shanghainese ones who try to deny the one ounce of culture they have: China.
There will be lots of people below noses if they heard that these two cities are not modern and developed: I really doult how old you are? You looks like an old man who lives in his small world, or a frog just sitting in the well the whole day and has never or going to go outside.
I do not see that marriage in Shanghai is because of social presure. I do not know what kind of girls you are dealing with everyday. Those who speak to you in mandarine because they can not speak English;those who speak English to you because they respect your natiuve language. Unbelivable that someone is totally rasit, no education, no manner and act like a YP( wai di called by Shanghainess).
What a waste of time to talk to these bullshits!
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“Those who speak to you in mandarine because they can not speak English;those who speak English to you because they respect your natiuve language”
The point is both girls speak Eng/CH well: the girl from Nanjing would love to speak to you in Mandarin, the SH girl will not. I’m speaking from experience. You can begin speaking in Mandarin with the SH girl and she’ll respond in English. Moreover, she will not speak to you with delight in her eyes, but a cold way.
“Unbelivable that someone is totally rasit, no education, no manner and act like a YP( wai di called by Shanghainess).”
Racist?? So in 上海话, you use a word for 外地人 as a 坏单词？
Now who’s the racist?
Hi everyone — Wow, I’m amazed by the response this post has gotten. Thanks for reading all 2,000 words of this thing, and for the comments, even though things seem to be getting a little heated. Everyone’s experiences are valid and you should feel free to share them, whether you have had only bad encounters with a particular type of women, or only good encounters. Please gently disagree instead of attacking other opinions.
I want to reiterate that by “Shanghai girl,” the author of the book is NOT explicitly referring to Shanghainese women, the women from Shanghai. In it she uses examples of “gold-digging” girls from Shanghai AND Jiangxi AND Hunan, etc. Not all of these girls have even stepped foot in Shanghai. In this case I would say that it was perhaps a big disservice to Shanghainese women to call the book such. To the reader who suggested we call these women “Lan Lans” instead: I agree.
To the reader who said my geography/basic knowledge sucks because I said Wendi Deng is an example of a Shanghai girl even though she is not from Shanghai: read the above paragraph again.
“the girl from Nanjing would love to speak to you in Mandarin, the SH girl will not. I’m speaking from experience. You can begin speaking in Mandarin with the SH girl and she’ll respond in English. Moreover, she will not speak to you with delight in her eyes, but a cold way.”
i’ve made completely different experiences with local girls actually. shanghainese generally preferred not to speak english. some kinda pride thing i guess. as in ‘those who come here should be able to communicate in our language’, which goes hand in hand with the somewhat bitchy/snobbish attitude thats generally attributed to sh girls. but why not? i find the whole “speak to you with delight in her eyes” thing that happens to you here as a foreigner weird anyway. a bit of urban eliticism (thats probably found in any other city like shanghai as well) in the long run made for some pretty solid and good friendships.
Yeah, I think the ‘common line’ you hear is that “Shanghainese are so used to speaking English, they don’t wanna speak 普通话 because they might get embarassed”.. which is an indirect way of saying, “We’re so westernized and international, we even ‘forgot’ how to speak 普通话” which is craziness. I mean. Just crazy. The vast majority of Shanghainese, like the locals, they don’t speak a word of English. The new generation, of course speak it, cuz they’re studying it in school.
Of course, Shanghai attracts millions of 外地人 to come here and work, all of whom have a much tougher time getting into Shanghai universities than the locals (protectionist policies for locals), so often, the girl from 河北 or whatever, speaks excellent English, as well as a few dialects of Chinese. They have to bust ass to come here, and thus, benefitted greatly.
I just hung out with some friends on the weekend, about 8-10 of us, White/Chinese, and the Chinese were from all over the country, all speaking English. I don’t think there’s anything really shocking in what I wrote.. all else being equal a 外地 girl will be delighted to chat with your in Mandarin, and a SH girl would rather switch over to English. Its just because the SH girl almost never speaks Mandarin at home, its just a pain in the ass to them.
The personality contrast, sadly, is like a broken record at this point. I honestly think SH girls ‘think’ that being kind of cold/stuck up is ‘sexy’ and that’s why they do it. And by and large, they send men fleeing in the opposite direction.
shanghai girls are the prettiest
Peter. You should travel more. This country is absolutely chock full of gorgeous women. Shanghai is just a big city. All big cities have lots of people, and thus, lots of pretty girls.
Christine – Who is this Michael Robson character and why in hell does he feel like he needs to comment on every post? Did you hire him to moderate this thing? Or is he just so lacking in things to do with his time that he stalks this blog on your behalf? Yes, stalk, as in S-T-A-L-K.
Bloomsburry, a big thumbs-up!
Oh, so true, so true.
“My boyfriend was offended.”
Ah, White people love manufacturing outrage over something that doesn’t even pertain to them. He’s offended on behalf of all Chinese women! How noble.
He’s actually manufacturing outrage on behalf of the silly sappy white guys in love with gold-diggers. Very noble too.
“White people love manufacturing outrage over something that doesn’t even pertain to them.”
I’m a straight white guy living in SH.. How on Earth does this not pertain to me? I have a little experience with the subject matter.
I’m not really sure what a ‘silly sappy white guy is,’ it’s blatantly obvious that I’m not defending gold-digger SH girls, plus, aren’t you dating a white guy? Hmmm…
Michael has a point here. This issue does not only affect white guy or SH girls only. It happens to all races and both genders as well. The more noticeable issue definately happens on white guy with Chinese girls. The old perception of “western guy’ come from heaven(big city with luxurious living)is dead. With China changing its economy position in the world helps uplift the iamge of all Chinese people, in and outside China.
My BF is a Malaysian Chinese and I am from the PRC. We met couple years ago in the U.K. Still now I don’t wanna see his family. One major reason is due to the bad reputation of PRC girls in Malaysia. The other reason is that it is harder to apply a visa entry to Malaysia if you are a PRC girl in your 20s or 30s.
Christine should really write a column in
one of the expat magazines !!!
Aunt Christine – lol
I like the idea. If someone’s willing to give me a column, why not!
Cheers,
Aunt Christine
why are you ppl talking about shanghainese for gods sake
most don’t date foreigners. stop obsessing over it. it’s an illusion from obsession
“And why we are so damn boggled and offended when Shanghai girls — or any women, any men — look for something else.”
esactly man
It’s interesting how Shanghai girls hold the exact same view of Waidi girls as the Malaysian and Singaporeans hold of the Shanghai girls.
It’s also interesting how asian americans hate to be referred to as ABCs or told that they are actually Chinese. And they also hate to be mistaken for the recently arrived Chinese immigrants – FOBs.
My theory is that as Chinese people evolve further and further from their mainland Chinese heritage, they likewise grow larger and larger superiority complexes towards their mainland brethren. And the reason is because they hate to be reminded of who they really are and where they really come from. Hence, Malaysian, Singaporean, and American Chinese look down on all mainlanders – Shanghai and Waidi alike. And Shanghai Chinese, having evolved past the Waidi look down on the Waidi Chinese.
The ironic thing is, all Chinese emigrants originally came from mainland China, just as almost all Shanghainese originally came from the waidi region. So basically all those Malaysian and Singaporean ‘aunties’ were once China Girls too, and they are probably quite ashamed of it.
I’m going to have to say as a western male that mainland Chinese are off putting mainly for reasons outside of their control. The combination of a population detached not but one generation from the fields which values money beyond all else, an artificially engineered family system which produces girls only obsessed with themselves and a schooling which stunts creative thinking; has created a race of women which are unfortunately but justifiably looked down upon.
Any Chinese girl who grew up outside of this system has every right to feel superior, be it HK, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia…. because quite simply they are. If you ever do meet a mainlander who slipped the PRC net of retardation please put me in touch.
Interesting post and hilarious comment thread. Shocker that the guy calling himself “new era tiger” is frustrated with the way women treat him.
Even though I am a man it sounds like Malaysia needs a serious dose of feminism. The indentured sex worker was really the bad guy in that story? How about blaming the men that are cheating and the system that only lets women be successful by using sex.
Some of the views here sound so absurdly and brutally stereotyped, makes me wonder what kind of ‘China girl’are you meeting everyday – ARE THEY EDUCATED AT ALL?
Quite frankly I am a, well to be exact, ‘mainlander girl’, or ‘someone who was born in mainland china’. None – absolutely none of my mainland female friends act in such a disgusting way some of you described and generalized in your comments! Do you really mean ‘majority’ or is that a mis-typed ‘minority’? Be it Shanhaiese or Beijinese, I can guarentee you the kind of little losers you’ve met are a tiny fraction of the minority who are so often excluded from Chinese mainstream society and culture – well sad poor little creatures – I hope things become better for them… but how how can Malaysians even call themselves ‘Chinese’ while at the same time keep ranting and gossiping about people who are in truth ‘more-Chinese’ than them – apologies if I sound silly – but do Malaysians actually read relatively complex Chinese? do they learn Classical Chinese text – poems and ancient philosophy? Do they have any deeper insight of what traditional CHinese painting and aesthetic views are? Do they at all know the history? Or have they all pathetically turned into Americanized yunkie-yakie type of cultureless clones who very proudly distance themselves from poor underclassed mainland job-seekers they happen to come across?
I have just realized that I’ve myself been stereotyping people above – well then, my sincere apology – the truth is I think that little bit of ‘pride’ and the accompanied ‘fear’ have been existed inside every normal human being since time immemorial, this complex ‘pride-fear-pride’ reflection has mostly scattered around little corners of the sino-related cultural social psychic sphere – perhaps perhaps partly due to the slightly oppressed way of oriental thinking and our suffering modern history…now that little ‘pride-fear’ prejudice has come out fully fleshed after ‘simulations’ from some of the ‘china girls’ who have clearly lost track of their own souls, so it seems the pretty little sino-looking mainlanders have all lost their souls.. although I do not deny the fact that the mainstream value system has lost at least half of its soul under the influence of soulless and much hyped Americanized trash culture but hey that’s just another story..
what about others – others who actually genuinely prefer a more free, democratic, humanist, individual, independent, (european) way of living? and you still generalize them as gold-diggers because they happen to fit all the bullet points ie. female, having non-Chinese bf, young and pretty, and most of all – being a bloody Chinese?!!?! then I’d blame 孔子 – it’s perhaps all his fault
Junde,
Even though you claim to be a Singaporean, there is only one advice for you.
When you get involved with those PRC girls and Ah Tiongs, then you will wake up one day to life and hopefully become more mature even as you try to argue now with proven views of what many Chinese adults and elders around the world have experienced and saw for themselves.
And as for your girlfriend, she is now yours for the moment. Just try telling her you have no inheritance and an empty bank account. If you are clever, you will know how to test her sincerity but then again would you want reality and be disappointed?
So youthful as you are!
Your post totally reminds me of this story with my mom’s friend that used to live with us in Taiwan. He was a 65 year old man married to a 55 year old women when she first met the china girl on his business trip to shanghai for 6 months they feel in love. The china doll was only 25 year old. He eventually left his wife for 5 years and have moved to china with his new wife. His wife was devasted and my mom feel sorry for her friend, so she offered her to temporarily move in with us until her and her two kids get settled down. His husband took all his money to go live with his new wife , so my mom’s friend had to start all over again in taiwan with a new job. 5 years later, when they were in the middle of filling some divorce papers, her husband came back to Taiwan looking like a crazy bum, he said that his new wife ran away with some other guy and took all his money, he had to come home with all his money gone and jobless. It was very jobless. I thought it was really big of my mom’s friend to have want to take her husband back after everything that he has to her.My mom was furious and warned me never to trust chinese man and to never ever date one. Sad story but true. The lady i was telling you is now working at my dad’s company to make ends meet, they can no longer afford the luxury they had before becoz of his runaway bride stole all his money so they had to start from scratch. This is all his husband’s terrible doing. They had a perfect family but he go ahead and throw everything away.:(
I find it ironic there is a discussion here on the stereotypes in Asia and yet right here in China is where I met a buddhist monk, who taught me to not latch onto an identity. With identity, its easy to take offense and we lock ourselves into very rigid ways of seeing/thinking/feeling and reacting. I am a son, friend, dutchmen, caucasian, but i choose not to label myself as anything, nothing in particular. Having learnt this, i’ve lived a happier life. I hope you understand the message i’m trying to make.
I think the lack of morals of the Mainland Chinese in particular has caused such a low regard of them in the eyes of overseas Chinese.
However, being a Malaysian Chinese, I do have to assert to you Mainland Chinese that we are NOT Chinese in the sense that we were once from your country, we are Chinese because of our ethnicity. Separately, we are all Malaysians, Hong Kongers, Singaporeans, Americans and what have you.
Excuse me, whoever you are. We Malaysian Chinese are not all English-educated. Just because we have better access to Western ideas, better education and have a generally higher standard of living than your average countryman does NOT mean that we are not Chinese culturally. I find this offensive, and I trust that my fellow Singaporeans will agree with this. Most Chinese parents will send their children to Chinese school to learn what you learn in textbooks. Many non-Chinese educated can speak in Mandarin or other Chinese dialects even though they are not able to read Chinese at all. Just because you live in China, does not make you more Chinese than others.
We are more Chinese than you are because in your Communist zeal of your leaders, you have destroyed them in the Cultural Revolution. This is the reason why true Chinese culture lies in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia and Singapore, perhaps in a minority in other countries like Indonesia, Thailand and Phillipines. Your leaders are the ones who destroyed everything China has to call Chinese, you Mainland Chinese are the ones who run over little girls, where bypasses does not give two hoots about her.
You Maindland Chinese are the antithesis to all Chinese out there.
What values can you prove to us when we hear news of Chinese children selling their kidneys to get an Apple Device.
What values can you show us when a man can literally urinate in the Shanghai Bund going off scot free.
What values can you show us when you place melamine into children’s milk powder?
Frankly, I am proud to be known as a Chinese, but I am horribly offended when I am mistaken to be from the Mainland thanks to all of you.
Once again, I will reiterate that although I am Malaysian, I do not think myself coming from the Mainland.
我是华人， 不是中国人.
Allow me to applaud my fellow Malaysian Chinese, Chinese Educated friend.
I attribute the highest regard to Christine, who has written an excellent article pertaining to the bad reputation placed on Mainland Chinese women.
Like Christine, I too have friends from Mainland China, most of them in Guizhou where I spent half of the summer as a student representative from Malaysia in an ASEAN-China event. Dear DesdemonaX allow me to inform you that, apparently, the students in Mainland China speak English with a heavy American accent, if you did not yet notice. During ice-breaking, instead of introducing themselves in their Chinese names, they introduced themselves as Tom, Percy, Jade, Alicia and various other English names. After being on familiar terms, I got to know their actual names: 洁玉, 法正, 萧风, 宏一 and so many others with such beautiful Chinese names. When asked why did they not use their actual names, they said that they were informed by their teachers that having an English name would please foreigners.
I believe, like the rest of the world, Mainland Chinese are just as “Americanised” and “yunkie-yakie” as you described. Why, the movies that are blockbuster films are mostly from the US. 麦当劳 is also from the US.
As to whether we know the Chinese language as well as Mainland Chinese do, diving into terminologies and ancient literature just as you all do… perhaps I should point out that some Mainland Chinese cannot even speak 普通话 as well as Taiwanese Chinese, Singaporean Chinese, Malaysian Chinese and Indonesian Chinese. If this is how you measure Chinese-ness, might I also remind you that there are in fact some Mainland Chinese, stricken by poverty, cannot afford to go to school or have dropped out? Do they then understand “relatively complex Chinese”? Can they interpret “traditional Chinese painting and aesthetic views”?
My fellow teammates and I were told by a trader in 哈尔滨 that people from 哈尔滨 speak the most accurate 普通话 in the whole of China. Perhaps he was boasting, perhaps it is a fact? However, he did tell us that he can understand our 普通话 better than most of the Mainland Chinese.
What actually defines Chinese-ness? How do we rate someone as more Chinese than the other? Is it by the knowledge of the language and the history, or is it by the intrinsic character and attitude of a person?
I would like to reiterate Christine’s point: not all Mainland Chinese women are the gold diggers we hear of. The bad apples in every community is highlighted simply because it makes news and these news sell. Remember, we as humans are only attracted to bad news. We want to know what is bad, who is bad, what tragedy has occurred.
I do not deny there aren’t any gold diggers and family wreckers, I am just saying that we should also acknowledge that there are also respectable Chinese ladies in Mainland China. And I take offence of DesdemonaX’s referral to us as “cultureless clonese”.
Based on my experience, there are some strong under-currents from PRC girls that would take generations to get rid of.
A previous gf of mine moved to Canada with her family over about thirty years ago. By the time I met her, she had a law degree from a Canadian university, and spoke English without any traceable accent.
Now, she didn’t need me for any passport (as she was already a Canadian citizen). However, her family had never really made the adjustment to Canada and still spoke Chinese almost exclusively despite being here for three decades.
Because her family never acquired the language and North American cultural knowledge, they were in an economic trap and were lower-middle class by North American standards.
Overtime, I could sense that my girlfriend was focused on securing more wealth for her family. What was amazing was how subtle and how persistent the effort was to try and figure out my wealth and the wealth of my family. I am normally very private about all these matters and the North American women that I dated would occasionally try to figure this out, but would not put a stunning amount of effort into it.
Eventually my Chinese gf started to declare that she didn’t want to work after the wedding, wanted an agreement that she would have sole custody of any kids from the marriage, and started to outline her expectations (that I should buy a bigger home as well as other properties for investment suggesting this was what Chinese people do – even though I am not Chinese), and that she wanted a monetary stipend. I told her that I couldn’t make any promises and that all of this would have to be financed by my current income since that I would requite a prenuptial agreement to protect my existing assets and the assets of my parents that might be gifted to me or that would come to me through inheritance. Well, that ended the relationship very quickly.
The bottom line is that after a couple of generations, this kind of persistence is no longer visible. When I was in high school, all the Chinese kids were from parents who came to Canada just after 1949 to escape communism. As a result, they parents were enthusiastic about the freedoms as much as about the economic opportunities, and their kids were very North American by the time I encountered them in school. Additionally, my dad’s study partner in medical school had escaped Shanghai in 1949, went to high school in Hong Kong, and then came to Canada to go to medical school. He and his family are so different from modern-day immigrants from the PRC.
Even here in Canada, there further people of Chinese ethnicity are from communist China (family immigrated before 1949, or came to Canada from HK, TW, SG etc), the more comfortable they are with North American values (ie love is more important than money).
I would have to think that communism has destroyed morals and blinds people to the value of virtuous living. Even if they left the PRC 30 years ago.
The same goes for other ethnicities. My mother German who escaped from communism – we used to think that Germans that remained behind in communist East Germany were not real Germans – more like ghost Germans without souls. Even after re-unification, it took a long time for these ex-communists to adjust to living in a proper civilization.
From reading all of the above posts, I just wanted to say one thing – Everyone is different and have different personalities. You can’t judge a person based on their natinality or background(travelling around the world will definetely help one to see and understand my point). Within a country/city there are good people, bad people, lazy people, smart people, kind people, stupid people, fun & loving people etc you get the idea?
So called ‘Overseas Chinese’ (Chinese Singaporeans, Chinese Malaysians, Chinese Americans, Chinese Canadians, Chinese Australians, etc) should simply be called ‘Han Singaporeans’, ‘Han Americans’, ‘Han Canadians’ etc or in Mandarin 华人 (Huaren), whereas the Mainland Chinese should be called 中国人 (Zhongguoren or literally Middle Nation People) or China citizens or PRC citizens). The two goups share a common ancestry and common culture but there are so many differences. The differences are more pronounced than White Europeans and White North Americans. You can tell the differences by the way they dress, speak, eat, shop, etc.
If you call Chinese Americans or Chinese Singaporeans “Chinese”, this is really a misnomer even if they are fluent Mandarin speakers (and most are not). So better to call them “Han” or “Huaren” rather than Chinese. And better to call the Mainlanders “Zhongguoren”.
This article really speaks what I wish to share with my friends. I used to hate PRC. (Lol, now you know where I am from.) But I grew to love them because not all of them are as cunning and scheming as they seems. I met some very nasty ones when I was studying. And they really horrifid me with all the tricks up their sleeves, from bribing lecturers to bribing classmates. That’s the culture they are from, to fight with the 1.6 billion people. On the other extreme, I met alot lovely PRC friends that will go by the law, innocent as any other Asian girls. Nowadays, I do stand up for these PRC friends. They are not perfect, but neither do I think the culture I am brought up in is perfect too.
From the perspective of a Malaysian Chinese who has lived and worked in Malaysia, Singapore and now in Australia, I do agree that mainland Chinese suffers from a negative image, mostly due to behaviors and characteristics that outsiders from the so called civilized societies describe as immoral, unethical, no civic consciousness etc.. I see them as merely a society that’s still immature and undergoing tremendous pressure from a quickly changing economic environment. Perhaps that’s where all these idolising of anything that’s from the west comes from. perhaps in time the mainlanders will realize that just being yourself and appreciating your own culture more will earn you more respect than anything else would. As of Mainland girls being gold diggers, I believe there could be a higher number of them, no thanks to the socio economic situation, and the huge population, which greatly exacerbates the situation. The apeks can only blame themselves for not being wise enough to see through their intentions, and giving in to these girl’s every demands to the extent of losing it all. In time, this will sort itself out as well if China continues on it’s economic progress and the average Mainland Chinese realizes there’s more to life than just money, something that hungry people will never comprehend. As for myself, I’ve not had the privilege of having formal Chinese education, although I would say the community where I grow up in holds true to Confucianism values till this day, same as the Taiwanese, Hongkies, and to me it’s one of the more important facets to being Chinese, as it exemplifies the virtues that every Chinese should adopt and uphold. mainlanders whom I’ve spoken to acknowledge this fact and regret that so much of it has been wiped off the Chinese way of life in China after the cultural revolution. Perhaps this is another reason for the wholesale adoption of the western culture post modernization. As for the less graceful social behaviors, I would attribute these to societal norms, Chinese in Aus don’t behave that way, nor do those more educated ones in China. Singaporeans have their less graceful sides too, as are Malaysians with their crazy driving, although nothing compared to the Chinese drivers.. The norms and standards are different where we all come from, there is nothing universal about it. and these norms change with a society’s progression. As a foreigner I do not comment nor I criticize as its easy to do so without experiencing life first hand as a local within those environments. in fact I will be living and working in China soon, maybe then I would be in a better position to do so.
All of these [allegedly] nefarious China girls flooding the world’s prim and proper communities must be exacerbating the notorious girl shortage that China faces. Oh well, the CCP knows best, and I do not want to be accused of being a China-hater.